Episode 054 Jonathan Eisen Jessica Richman

Summary

• Main Points:
• Tim Ferriss interviews two scientists/entrepreneurs about the microbiome
• Jessica Richman is the cofounder and CEO of uBiome, a startup backed by Y Combinator and Andreesson Horowitz
• Jonathan Eisen is a full professor at the University of California Davis with appointments in the School of Medicine and the College of Biological Sciences
• Jessica and Jonathan discuss the study of microorganisms, which are invisible to the naked eye
• Jonathan Eisen invented the word "phylogenomics" to refer to the evolution of genomes
• Tim Ferriss contracted Lyme disease and used antibiotics, leading to health issues
• Jonathan Eisen discusses the promise of the microbiome and the misconceptions surrounding it
• Microbiome research has been oversold and overinterpreted, leading to miscalculations in scientific studies and personal dietary changes.
• Citizen science is a term coined by the Cornell Ornithology Lab in the 1970s, which involves citizens collaborating with scientists to create interesting science.
• Gut, mood, and behavior are connected, with research showing that the microbiome can affect a mouse's mood and humans having different microbiomes in different mood conditions.
• The microbiome is complex and its effects can be subtle, with hypothesized mechanisms including inflammation, microbes making chemicals that induce behavior, and microbes providing critical functions to the host.
• Humans are composed of both human cells and microbial cells, with estimates of the microbial cells ranging from 5090%.
• Microbes are found in the mouth, gut, skin, and other orifices and places.
• Humans have evolved in a microbial world for hundreds of millions of years, and our systems are adapted to predict and respond to microbes.
• The technology for studying microbial communities has improved and become cheaper in recent years, allowing for DNA analysis to identify and predict the functional potential of microbes.
• Research is currently limited by the number of samples available, and Jonathan Eisen and Jessica Richman suggest engaging the public to collect more samples.
• Future research should focus on characterizing the DNA of microbial communities, as well as looking at the functions encoded in the genes and doing experiments to test those functions.
• Studies should also be more scalable and flexible, allowing for larger sample sizes and the ability to take a subset of the participants and go forward with that group.
• The plural of anecdote is not data, but rather hypothesis. Studies should be evaluated based on the number of participants and the amplitude of the change from the intervention.
• Jonathan Eisen believes that scientists should not suppress work due to lack of statistical sample size or other reasons.
• He believes that creativity and observations should be harnessed and supported.
• If given five million dollars, he would invest it in small projects to support creativity and observations.
• Jessica Richman believes that correlational studies should be moved to the next phase of diagnostics and therapeutics.
• She would use the money to move research to the next phase and to put her knowledge from working on uBiome to good use.
• Tim Ferriss believes microexperiments are undervalued and that the law of large numbers can help smooth out flaws in data.
• He believes that creating an environment in which beneficial bacteria can thrive is more important than probiotics.
• Probiotics industry is a $30 billion a year industry
• Science has not been there to support it until recently
• Public will demand better products that can be tested and are actually valuable
• Probiotics industry is poised for a leap into better products
• Thinking like an ecologist is important to make sense of treatments and move into a system where it is useful
• Understanding the microbiome in an evolutionary context is important to interpret changes in response to antibiotics, diet, and globalization
• It is not obvious how to make the microbiome like it used to be 20,000 years ago
• Summary:
• Antibiotics are the number one disrupter of the microbiome.
• Diet changes, such as gluten and dairy, can also have an immediate impact on the microbiome.
• Early development factors, such as caesarian sections, formula feeding, and excessive cleanliness, can lead to longerterm problems with the microbiome.
• It is possible to store fecal matter for future use, and it is possible to characterize the microbiome in detail.
• Technology is not yet advanced enough to bring the microbes back to life, but it is possible to know what was present at a certain point in time.
• Jessica Richman and Jonathan Eisen discussed the potential of banking fecal samples for future use.
• Richman and Eisen discussed the potential of using the samples for analysis methods of today and in the future.
• Tim Ferriss discussed banking sperm and the potential of using the samples for rejuvenation or modification.
• Eisen discussed his specialty of using an evolutionary perspective to study individual microbes or communities of microbes.
• Eisen discussed the most irritating questions he gets asked from an evolutionary standpoint.
• Ferriss asked Eisen's opinion on the paleo diet and vegetarianism, to which Eisen responded that he dislikes rules and that the paleo diet is interesting from a conversational point of view, but applying it to modern life is a stretch. He also said that vegetarianism could be good for some people, but not necessarily for everyone.
• Current mode of meat production has enormous ecological and health problems associated with it
• Eating factoryfarmed meat with antibiotics is not as good for you as eating locally grassfed beef
• Rules are applied blindly, while constraints are applied with an open mind and intelligence
• Jonathan Eisen was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at age 16
• Jonathan's grandfather was a physicist and inspired him to pursue science
• Jessica Richman studied economics and computer science at Stamford and then went to Oxford to study computational social science
• Jessica was part of a program called Startup Chile which gave her $40,000 and a visa to Chile to become an entrepreneur and start her company
• Jessica Richman and Jonathan Eisen are cofounders of uBiome, a company that uses data science techniques to study the microbiome.
• Jessica was working on commercializing ideas about social networks as part of her Ph.D. when she met Jonathan, who was doing his Ph.D. in biophysics at UCSF.
• Their mission is to involve the public in science by doing large scale studies and turning the insights into useful products.
• Jonathan's most gifted book is A Field Guide to the Birds of North America by National Geographic.
• Jessica's favorite author is Ernest Hemingway and she often gifts his Short Stories.
• Jonathan's morning ritual includes making coffee with his wife and spending an hour with her before their kids wake up.
• Jonathan Eisen wakes up at 5:55 a.m. every day to give himself time to think and process before dealing with the ritual of getting his kids fed and off to school.
• Jonathan and his wife, both scientists, try to take a holistic approach to parenting, using common sense and talking to each other rather than relying on scientific studies.
• Jonathan's defining moment as a child was when he saw a cheetah sprinting in the savannah in Kenya.
• Jessica Richman admires people who have come a long way from where they used to be, and she looks to people who are one step ahead of her for inspiration.
• Jessica's superpower is finding people who have done the next thing she is trying to do and learning from them. She likes to ask how things were done.
• Jessica Richman suggests asking questions about the tricks and values that led to success stories, as well as asking about the sacrifices made to achieve success.
• Jonathan Eisen recommends the movie Shackleton, which is a story of human spirit, persistence, and exploration.
• Jessica Richman recommends the movie The Edge, starring Anthony Hopkins, Alec Baldwin, and Elle McPherson.
• Jonathan Eisen wishes he was better organized and suggests that his hatred of rules may be related to this.
• Tim Ferriss and Jonathan Eisen discuss how they are able to accomplish a lot despite their lack of organization.
• Jessica Richman talks about her lack of confidence when she was 20 and how she has learned to not be afraid of trying things.
• She also talks about how she has learned to think broadly about what is possible and to not wait for rewards.
• Jonathan Eisen advises his 20yearold self to trust good people and ask for advice, and to thank those who help him.
• Tim Ferriss thanked Jessica Richman and Jonathan Eisen for taking the time to have a conversation.
• People can learn more about Jessica Richman and uBiome by visiting uBiome.com.
• Jessica Richman is on Twitter @JessicaRichman and uBiome is on Twitter @uBiome.
• Jonathan Eisen's Twitter handle is associated with phylogenomics and his personal blog is phylogenomics@blogspot.
• Tim Ferriss recommends 99designs.com/tim for graphic design needs.